Curse

bhavv · Jan 21, 2008, 06:35 AM // 06:35

I still prefer searing flames cos I love using it with their on fire on my para, but my hero ellys all use cynns mind blast bar with something other then MS. Both are good, though I would firmly advise against using AoE like savannah heat in HM due to fast moving enemies.

Also, go geo against destroyers, and water with harm ward in kathandrax.

Oh yea, if you have 2 or more nukers in your party, always bring mark of rodgort to make them more effective. Not vs destroyers tho ofc

tmakinen · Jan 21, 2008, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sacratus Ignis

the one elite you don't give any love to that IMO is the best nuker elite in many situations is assassin's promise.

Yes, an AP nuker can be very powerful but the catch is that it requires more skill than the alternatives discussed above. A single mistake can completely shut down the damage cycle for the remaining duration of a fight. Furthermore, several monster groups have decent hex removal capabilities and running an AP nuker against such monsters is a possible but not terribly recommended option (AI has inhuman reflexes with hex removal and you have a very small window of opportunity to slip the hex in). Since the intention of the OP is to give inexperienced elementalists a simple yet powerful build, AP nuking doesn't qualify.

Div · Jan 21, 2008, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney Malloney

Rodgort, Liquid Flame, Glowing Gaze, GolE + Utility... Oh yes, you're right... having SF disabled is just as worse as having a 60 second blackout...

Anyone that runs rodgorts on a SF is crazy. Or retarded. And between liquid flame and glowing gaze, you can hardly argue that the SF is effective. A typical SF bar requires 4 skills to power the combo (SF, Glowing gaze, Attunement, GoLE), leaving 4 other skill slots for utility. A typical MB bar requires 3 skills (MB, Rodgorts, Attunement), leaving an extra slot compared to SF for utility.

Stoney Malloney · Jan 21, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Anyone that runs rodgorts on a SF is crazy. Or retarded. And between liquid flame and glowing gaze, you can hardly argue that the SF is effective. A typical SF bar requires 4 skills to power the combo (SF, Glowing gaze, Attunement, GoLE), leaving 4 other skill slots for utility. A typical MB bar requires 3 skills (MB, Rodgorts, Attunement), leaving an extra slot compared to SF for utility.

If I am crazy, or retarded for that sake, you have to be a total idiot, as I ran you some HM missions... Remember? Well I do... I used SF during the runs and I don't recall the runs were bad, but they might as well have been, because SF really really sucks according to you.

The extra slot you have with MB does NOT (personal preference perhaps?) outweigh the damage difference compared to SF. On top of that, having Mark of Rodgort is not retarded at all, it'll allow all of your Glowing Gaze spells to give the energy unconditional on hexed enemies, not to mention it will actually greatly improve your damage output.(Even a target not set on fire yet will give the energy bonus as first the fire damage is applied, causing the burning to begin, and then the bonus is checked and given)

LightningHell · Jan 21, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

The extra slot you have with MB does NOT (personal preference perhaps?) outweigh the damage difference compared to SF.

It's not just the extra slot.

IMO being able to spam stuff like Heal Party and provide high-cost support is worth the extra single-digit DPS (a Mind Blast bar typically can generate about 50ish DPS, maybe a bit more, while an SF bar...I think it's around high ends of 50 to 60.) A Mind Blast also doesn't suck in a balanced group.

What the hell can you do as "support" as a SF ele? SF is extremely energy intensive.

Grammar · Jan 21, 2008, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

It's not just the extra slot.

IMO being able to spam stuff like Heal Party and provide high-cost support is worth the extra single-digit DPS (a Mind Blast bar typically can generate about 50ish DPS, maybe a bit more, while an SF bar...I think it's around high ends of 50 to 60.) A Mind Blast also doesn't suck in a balanced group.

What the hell can you do as "support" as a SF ele? SF is extremely energy intensive.

Agreed. The only utility I dare put on a SF bar is Aegis, because that only costs 10e every 30 seconds, which is manageable. But MB gives you both the slots and energy to run almost anything you want (Heal Party, Extinguish, Blinding Flash, PvE skills, etc. etc.)

As for the damage, yes, a SF build will do more damage than a MB build, but it requires more slots and energy to do so, and even then the difference isn't all that huge (around 10 DPS depending on your specific build). But you can't just look at the overall DPS, you need to look at the DPS per damage skill slot in order to determine efficiency. In other words, you need to divide the overall damage by the number of slots required to do that damage.
And that fact of the matter is, MB has higher DPS per damage skill slot than SF.

Sacratus Ignis · Jan 21, 2008, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Yes, an AP nuker can be very powerful but the catch is that it requires more skill than the alternatives discussed above. A single mistake can completely shut down the damage cycle for the remaining duration of a fight. Furthermore, several monster groups have decent hex removal capabilities and running an AP nuker against such monsters is a possible but not terribly recommended option (AI has inhuman reflexes with hex removal and you have a very small window of opportunity to slip the hex in). Since the intention of the OP is to give inexperienced elementalists a simple yet powerful build, AP nuking doesn't qualify.

Yeah this is a good point - AP is slightly more involved than MB and SF - though the topic's point seemed to be to expose eles to the few best general purpose nuker elite skills. As the OP gave an analysis of MB, SF, SH, and even mind burn lol, I figured someone ought to point out that AP can be an incredibly powerful build if used well in the right place. AP was a competitive bar even before GWEN was released with Finish Him!, which at my 10 norn makes AP so incredibly overpowered.

The debate also has devolved into what the best bars are, and not the easiest. If it were an easiest bar debate, SF is the easy winner. A good MB bar requires more than one weapon set to run well, and it helps if you've got the sense to target the low-e foes for your MB even if you've been nuking the backline. SF wins for ease of noob use, as the only slight challenge it presents is maintaining energy throughout a protracted fight...

Stoney Malloney · Jan 21, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

May I pretty please point out that having a 3rd or even 4th attribute lowers the damage done by MB and RI... Duh... Pluus go use SF and MB/RI in the area outside of great temple of balthazar, MB 35-45dps with an occassional 51-52, SF steady 55-60. And again, energy management is totally what you make of it. Not to mention the positive side effect of the burning at 14 dmg per second per burning foe, sure RI has the same benefit, but less than HALF of it and not permanent like SF as RI has a longer recharge.

DREAM ON, in terms of DPS SF is more , far more powerful than MB/RI will ever be. For all those ppl who say utility is needed, I run a HM mission service, and I never really need Aegis on myself, or need blinding flash to blind something, that is cause in my team eles deal damage, monks heal, minions take aggro, minion masters raise minions, and anything other than those 3 professions is obsolete/support/extra.

What makes anyone for this matter think that an ele is a support character??? It is meant to hurt, hurt a lot for that sake, if you're so full of having a support character, take a paragon or get some decent monk builds so you won't actually need a paragon.

The last time I checked, e/mo's were uncool, and for me they still are. Let monks do the healing, eles stick to the ganking and in that case SF is best.
SF being bad at prolonged battles is non-sense too, in Vizunah Square HM, you have fights that take 2-3 minutes, I NEVER have energy problems there, simply cause I know my way around with SF builds; (Sure call me a noob cause you think it's as easy as spamming 1 2 1 2 1 2... w/e) in fact, in terms of spammability, MB/RI IS easier. In terms of Distractibility, MB/RI IS easier to interrupt. In terms of DPS or DP/Skill, SF IS stronger. In terms of Utility, yes, MB/RI has exactly 1 skill point more and easier energy management (talking about the skill it requires to use a build! holy moly...), I can't believe some people are so hypocrit to see that they call SF noob cause it is spamming while MB/RI in fact is just as worse, if not worse, as running SF the way I do actually requires SKILL. I don't run a mission service where I need consumables to finish Raisu palace under 15 minutes, I don't need Sabway, SF serves me well, and will always serve me well.

After this post I can't be bothered to spend any more time to tell you how the reality is. SF is great, you just need to learn how to use it in contrairy to all the beliefs anyone can use it.

Goooood luck.

RotteN · Jan 21, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Hi. Read me. Nuking sucks.

Tyla · Jan 21, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney Malloney

DREAM ON, in terms of DPS SF is more , far more powerful than MB/RI will ever be. For all those ppl who say utility is needed, I run a HM mission service, and I never really need Aegis on myself, or need blinding flash to blind something, that is cause in my team eles deal damage, monks heal, minions take aggro, minion masters raise minions, and anything other than those 3 professions is obsolete/support/extra.

I laughed at the "anything other than those 3 professions" bit...
BTW - PvE isn't exactly hard now is it?

Quote:

What makes anyone for this matter think that an ele is a support character??? It is meant to hurt, hurt a lot for that sake, if you're so full of having a support character, take a paragon or get some decent monk builds so you won't actually need a paragon.

No it isn't, IF it wasn't ment to be a support character - why are the Water, Earth and Air attributes there?
Paragons make an easier job for the monk, and deal good damage at that.
Monks should be able to keep up energy, still anyway.

Quote:

The last time I checked, e/mo's were uncool, and for me they still are. Let monks do the healing, eles stick to the ganking and in that case SF is best.

lol...what don't you get about the elements "Water, Earth, Air"?
Let eles deal that minority of damage and play defensive, let warriors do the damage, or let eles deal that nice hefty damage from MB/RI...

Quote:

SF being bad at prolonged battles is non-sense too, in Vizunah Square HM, you have fights that take 2-3 minutes, I NEVER have energy problems there, simply cause I know my way around with SF builds; (Sure call me a noob cause you think it's as easy as spamming 1 2 1 2 1 2... w/e) in fact, in terms of spammability, MB/RI IS easier. In terms of Distractibility, MB/RI IS easier to interrupt. In terms of DPS or DP/Skill, SF IS stronger. In terms of Utility, yes, MB/RI has exactly 1 skill point more and easier energy management (talking about the skill it requires to use a build! holy moly...), I can't believe some people are so hypocrit to see that they call SF noob cause it is spamming while MB/RI in fact is just as worse, if not worse, as running SF the way I do actually requires SKILL.

Again - no it doesn't, spamming one skill is different from spamming 2 skills, yes a MB/RI build is easy to run, but since when does making energy management HARDER for you reduce the skill level?

Quote:

I don't run a mission service where I need consumables to finish Raisu palace under 15 minutes, I don't need Sabway, SF serves me well, and will always serve me well.

Raisu palace HM is cake...did it under 15 mins no consumes no sabway no ursan, again PvE is the easy mode of guild wars.

Quote:

After this post I can't be bothered to spend any more time to tell you how the reality is. SF is great, you just need to learn how to use it in contrairy to all the beliefs anyone can use it.

Goooood luck.

Simply because you've ran out of arguments, you're so hooked onto your PvE leetness that you believe your that skillful. I say, visit PvP and watch yourself get wtfpwnd...believe me...

Lhim · Jan 21, 2008, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I say, visit PvP and watch yourself get wtfpwnd...believe me...

To be fair, I thought this was about PvE and not PvP.

kosh · Jan 22, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

You are absolutely 100% correct. Why would you ever wait until you are out of combat to rez someone? Doing that is the stupidest most retarded thing I have ever heard. Anyone who thinks rebirth is a good skill should just /uninstall Guild Wars now!

Stop being bad and go /rt with death pact or flesh.

oh stfu, omg f morons that think they know it all...gtfo.

how about elite missions like urgos that u have to have rebirth?

how about 2/3 man trapping team?

how about a 5 man SF fa group?

how about doa groups? where ppl have to die any you rebirth them? (not sure in that my memory is toast

.

how about Topk team?. just sigh... u cant be more wrong.

so many pve teams can wipe in 2 secs because some scrub aggro everything. if your smart enough to see that your team is about to total wipeass... run... lose aggro, get rez chain going.

hows that for being "Anyone who thinks rebirth is a good skill should just /uninstall Guild Wars now!" ? OMG SCRUBS.

LifeInfusion · Jan 22, 2008, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

Hi. Read me. Nuking sucks.

It's true because of the way adrenaline works. I don't think there's any spellcaster chain that can spike like Eviscerate-Executioner's-Agonizing. On the energy side, Unsuspecting Strike - Wild Strike - Dual attack of choice. Warriors Paragons, and Assassins reign since the armor ignoring damage done ignores mob level as well.

Of course the thread you are pointing to was all before Rodgort's got its recharge slashed to 5 seconds and Searing Flames came to the fore. That doesn't change the fact that it is 25 energy and 15 energy (respectively) however.

Also, when you take into account mob level the elementalist spells completely suck damagewise. I remember in Hard mode hitting for roughly 40 damage on a level 28 mob using Rodgort's Invocation on 16 Fire Magic.

You're better off with Paragons and warriors for pure DPS and having a Ritualist spamming Splinter Weapon. I think what makes up for the damage difference is that casters are less likely to be shut down whereas you have blind/miss hexes/etc that all affect physicals.

The Caveat here is when you have a tank-nuke-heal setup like people run in PvE, which multiplies the damage efficiency by a very large number depending on how many mobs you hit. This only applies to AoE though and that is why skills like Stoning are very inefficient wherever. Hell, even Barrage has a better efficiency than nuking on mobs with high armor assuming there is only 7 mobs or less.

P.S. the calculations were done for PvE where targets have 60 armor.

Ensign · Jan 22, 2008, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney Malloney

May I pretty please point out that having a 3rd or even 4th attribute lowers the damage done by MB and RI... Duh...

lolwut?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney Malloney

SF is great, you just need to learn how to use it in contrairy to all the beliefs anyone can use it.

Push the Searing Flames button on recharge. Use energy management while it's recharging. It's really hard.

LightningHell · Jan 22, 2008, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Pluus go use SF and MB/RI in the area outside of great temple of balthazar, MB 35-45dps with an occassional 51-52, SF steady 55-60.

I was going to argue about how important utility is and how much eles are good at it, and that a few DPS wasn't really worth it, and was on my way to proving it...and then you said this.

Stop failing. If I really wanted damage, I'd be tanking a Dragon Slash warrior. If I wanted AoE I'd bring Triple Chop, or get a Ritualist with my Dragon Slash. Additionally, you must be playing exceptionally badly to get that amount of DPS.

Marverick · Jan 22, 2008, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Anyone that runs rodgorts on a SF is crazy. Or retarded. And between liquid flame and glowing gaze, you can hardly argue that the SF is effective. A typical SF bar requires 4 skills to power the combo (SF, Glowing gaze, Attunement, GoLE), leaving 4 other skill slots for utility. A typical MB bar requires 3 skills (MB, Rodgorts, Attunement), leaving an extra slot compared to SF for utility.

WTB [skill]Auspicious Incantation[/skill]

LightningHell · Jan 22, 2008, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

WTB [skill]Auspicious Incantation[/skill]

So you're using 5 skillslots instead of 4? Because AI ain't going to replace any of the basic SF emanagement skills.

tuna-fish_sushi · Jan 22, 2008, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Is this for heroes only?

anyway Ive been using this bar pretty efficiently
Fire Attunement
Elemental Attunement
Rodgorts Invocation
Arcane Echo

If I remeber correctly i get 80% and 1 Energy back from every Rodgort i use so thats 21 energy and since Rodgorts has a 2 second cast time i get 2 energy from natural regeneration. Thus I get a Rodgort every 2-3 seconds for 2 energy each. I like it. Never gotten into Mind Blast though.

LightningHell · Jan 22, 2008, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuna-fish_sushi

Is this for heroes only?

No, Heroes tend to use it horribly in my experience. This is for humans.

Feel free to contradict that statement.

Div · Jan 22, 2008, 05:53 AM // 05:53

I love it when people use the "I can beat the game with this build. Therefore it's good." or "Because I did _____ with this build, it's good."